www.iFourWinns.com

Hi all-

Have not posted in awhile due to elderly parent issues this past summer. I do however have a problem(s) with my '98 Horizon 240 that I was hoping to get some help with.

At the beginning of the season, had problems with the starter.... bad solenoid. Replaced the starter (with an aftermarket) and have had problems ever since. Each time I mounted the new starter, seems that I could not pull the bolts down tight enough, hence a broken nose-cone on one that I had to replace again. Thought the bolts may have been too long with the replacement starter, so shimmed with washers. While this was happening (can't tell you how many times I had the starter in and out), I believe I wore the teeth down on the ring gear trying to start each time. Now, when I finally get the starter pulled down tight, the starter makes the grinding noise (missing the teeth) and will barely crank the motor. I tried some shims under the starter but that did not seem to make a difference. I probably need to pull the motor and replace the flywheel at some point. Was thinking about this project in the spring.

My big concern is that I was unable to winterize the motor running. I usually suck up 5 gal. or so of the AF and run thru motor at end of the season. Now with it not running, no can do. I figured I could pull the block plugs and fill with AF thru thermostat housing. The only problem is that the left side block plug is frozen and I cannot get a wrench on it as it has been rounded prior to my getting the boat. Got the right side plug out.

Any ideas on what I need to to (given the circumstances) to winterize properly so I am not thinking about this every cold day that we have here in New York this winter.

Thanks in advance for any advice or help.

4 cylinder engines usually stop each time with the crank/ flywheel/ ring gear in the same position, which causes wear of the ring gear in quite a localised area. This was quite apparent on older car engines I worked on when I was a lot younger, when pre-engaged starters were not used. (The starter gear was always starting to spin as it crashed into the ring gear!). I don't know if this is also the case for 8 cylinder ones, but it's worth a go; Try turning the engine by hand some 90 to 180 degrees from where it has stopped, using a spanner on the main pulley (coil lead disconnected, in case it decides to try to start!) This might expose some "fresh" teeth for the starter to get a hold of, hopefully just enough so the engine can be started for heating up and winterising. If you can't turn the engine by hand ( eg VP water pump is in the way of the pulley), if you put it in gear and remove the plugs, you should be able to get it to turn by rotating the prop).

If that doesn't work, you could try hammering on a metric socket onto the rounded off AF plug. (12mm on a 1/2", 14 or even a 13 mm on a 9/16", 15mm on a 5/8"). I have done this succesfully in the past; it sometimes means sacrificing the socket, but that's cheap compared to an engine). Another alternative is a small pair of "stilsons"; a plumbing spanner with a sprung jaw that tightens it's grip the more it is turned ( I don't know what they are called in the US).

Graham

We had a similar problem with my wife's old '88 Toyota Camry, when it got to be about 10 years old, the ring gear began wearing and once in a while, when she tried to start it the starter would grind, then usually on the second try it would crank the engine. The shop we took it to told us we'd have to replace the ring gear eventually. We wound up selling it before that became necessary.
In the case of your engine, I would try cranking it over just a bit, as Graham said, to see if the teeth will engage on a different part of the flywheel.
As far as winterizing it, you can drain one side but not the other, right? If you can't get it to start, then I'd try what Graham advised with the drain plug. I actually removed a stripped locking lug nut with a similar procedure, sacrificing a 3/4 in socket in the process! If that doesn't work, try pulling the lower end of the big hose on the circulating pump on the front of the engine. See how much more water drains, doing that with the plug you can get out removed. Then replace the bottom end of that hose on the pump, and leave the top end by the thermo housing disconnected. Finally try filling the engine at the top end of the hose with -100 Af thru the hose, till some comes out the open drain. Grease that plug's threads and then replace it. Continue to fill the engine till the AF pushes out whatever water was left thru the thermo housing. Keep filling it until only AF is coming out. If you got about 2 gallons of AF into the engine, then you probably are safe from freezing. Even if there was some water in there, the freeze protection level of the -100 stuff is about -54 F.
Ultimately you are probably going to have to pull the engine to replace the flywheel.
One thing about the drain plugs, I always greased them with OMC triple guard grease and they have always come out without any problems, and this is a raw water cooled engine in salt water.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Thanks for the replies guys. I tried pulling the ring gear through by hand and the motor will then crank, until it hits the worn areas...not enough to get the motor started.

I will try the undersized socket....it is very tight quarters, and really cannot get a wrench on it.

Have either of you (or anyone else) pulled a motor out? I am fairly mechanically inclined and have pulled auto motors in the past. Not sure how much harder this would be, with the drive and all. Tried to research info on "how-to" but only found limited info as far as pulling a marine I/O.

Thanks again!

Bill

_________________
1998 Horizon 240
5.7GSi

Graham, over here we call them "doohickies."

_________________


Mike
2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic

I've never had to pull a boat motor yet, but I have pulled and re-installed the outdrive, and pulling it is pretty easy, you remove the 6 nuts on the upper unit, remove the trim rams (a nut on each end of the rod that goes thru the upper unit) and usually you can just slide it back. Be careful of your back, they are heavy, probably close to 100 lbs. I built a stand out of 2x6s for my Cobra and put adjustable casters under it so I can slide it under the drive and just slide it off without having to lift anything. I have watched my neighbor pull an engine out of his old Chapparall using a tree branch and a come along or block and tackle, I forget which. The drive has to come off first, because the drive shaft has to come out of the engine coupler, for the engine to lift up. I'd want to have someone with me that has done it before. Partly it depends on how high up you have to lift the engine to get it to clear the boat's gunnels and transom. I bet if you could rent a big enough engine hoist it would not be that bad of a job. As far as getting info on how to do this, go over to
http://www.iboats.com go to the I/O repairs forum, there are some very knowldgeable people there, and in general, iboats is one of the best boater do it yourself forums, in terms of the combined knowledge. Guys there have literally completely rebuilt boats, changed drives, motors, re-done transoms, you name it, they have done it.
The main thing for now, is to try to get the water out of the block (getting cold here on LI, down to freezing in some places) and get -100 AF in there.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Yep - called a "doohickey" here in Oz as well Mike...

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Alec

2006 Horizon 190
VP 4.3GL/SX, Sunsport

Thanks again Lou. I'll check out iboats and see if I can pull up some info for spring motor pull. In the meantime, will continue to work on getting out the drain plug in the block so I can insure a full level of AF in it.

Bill

_________________
1998 Horizon 240
5.7GSi

"Doohickeys" or "Doohickies". you're not having a joke at a poor Welshman's expense, are you?

Graham

Bill,

I know it's reckoned to be bad for an engine to use it all the time, but it might be worth trying to spray some " instant start" spray into the throttle body or even into the bores just the once ( = diethylether, from the smell of it). It might just make the engine start a little quicker, before the damaged teeth come round to the starter pinion. You could also turn the engine manually so the damaged teeth are just out of position, maximising the number of good teeth used.

Graham

No sir!

_________________


Mike
2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic

Hell yes Graham - from one Taffy to another!! My family originally hails from Anglesea.

I think the British translation for this highly specialised tool is a "thing-a-me-jig"..

I believe the "thing-a-me-jig" is metric versus the "Doohickey" which is Imperial...

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Alec

2006 Horizon 190
VP 4.3GL/SX, Sunsport

Hey Graham-

Good idea.....forgot about pouring some fuel into the throttle body to get it to kick over a bit quicker. I have pulled the motor past the worn teeth already, so no problem there.

Thanks for the advice!


Bill

_________________
1998 Horizon 240
5.7GSi

Alec,

Anglesey; me too !!

Graham