www.iFourWinns.com

Hello Everyone,
I bought a 2001 328 Vista about a month ago, and been working on little fixes here and there when I came across something I really don't want to deal with. When I bought the boat, the survey said that the black water tank needs to be emptied per the gauge. When I talked to the owner about it, he says he emptied it everytime he got gas, but barely used the head anyways. The boat had an little odor in the cabin that I was aware of. After thinking that the sender was bad on the tank, I went to pull it out to clean off and inspect. Surprise The tank could not of been any more full and the filter was ruined. Took it over to the pump out, and nothing came out. There happened to be a mechanic in the area summerizing some other boats, so I grabbed him when he was done. 3 1/2 hours later, we think we figured the problem out, but cant find a solution.

What seems to be an issue is that this boat has 2 black water tanks? One under the cabin floor (belly tank), and the other underneath the port aft cabin cushion (top tank). The head empties into the top tank. In theory, I guess gravity and the amount of water used flushing the head should push everything through the top tank down down to the belly tank. The belly tank is where the pumpout hose is attached. My manual is a joint 298/328 issue and only shows the tank under the floor. So I'm hoping someone has the same yr/model as mine to confirm this. We are thinking that something is clogging the hose between the two tanks.

I wasn't able to pull any hoses with the top tank full, so I had to empty the 9 yr old s**t through the hole where the sender goes in. I had to modify a mobile pumpout with a shop vac hose to get this to work since the hole is on top of the tank. Cleaned it out and filled and flushed it several times through the top hole. Then started flushing water through the pumpout gasket. So if I'm right, water should go through the pumpout hose into the belly tank and then up into the top tank. It works!! Did the process 3-4 more times and feeling good that I got the clogged cleared. Well on the last time, I keeped about 3/4 of the water in the top tank and added some chemicals. I waited two days with the bottom tank full and top tank almost full. Took it to the pumpout yesterday feeling good. The bottom tank clears, and now waiting for the top tank to empty into the bottom tank and be pumped out. No luck. The top tank did empty an inch into the bottom tank. It almost seems that there is flap between the two tanks since water moves so easily one direction, but not the right direction.

Sorry if this long, but I'm lost on a solution short of pulling out the tanks and hoses. Has anyone heard of this or dealt with it. By the way, the cabin smells 100 times better now that the crud is out.

_________________

2001 328 Vista

Previous Boats:
2004 Sea Ray 220 Select

I have no knowledge about this, but have you tried to get FW invlolved? I would put a call in on that one.

_________________
Jeff

'14 Cruisers 380 Express "Simon Sez"
Merc 8.2 Mag MPI 380
DTS B3X, (x2) Axius Premier


(SOLD)
'08 V318
Merc 350 Mag MPI 300
DTS Seacore, B3 (x2)

Not yet. Thought I knew what the answer was and it wasn't going to be to hard to fix, just disgusting. I am going to try and call them today or Monday.

_________________

2001 328 Vista

Previous Boats:
2004 Sea Ray 220 Select

On my 358, I have a gray water tank system, as well as the black water system. Some lakes require this. The belly tank is filled from the toilet (black water) and emptied through a pump-out. The top tank, under the cushions, is for gray water. Gray water from sinks and shower fill the top tank. The top tank has it's own seperate pump out.

Check topsides for another pump out. Maybe someone converted your gray water tank to additional black water storage.

_________________
2008 V358 Two-tone Blue V/P Dual Prop 320 HP
Lake Winnipesaukee, NH

If you haven't already, check the owners manual and parts listings:
http://www.fourwinns.com/past_product/owners_manuals
http://www.fourwinns.net/partbook/basem ... l=328V-D01

I've never seen the two tanks chained together. It's always been my impression that they serve different purposes. The one in the keel is the black water (toilet) tank. The other one is a gray water tank from the shower and sinks. But then I've never seen how they're pumped out. I never thought about it. I just assumed there would be a second pump out fixture up on the gunwale. Is that not the case? I don't have a gray water setup. I just read the 328 manual and it seems to indicate there's supposed to be a 2nd waste fitting up on the gunwale.

If you're not using the boat on a lake you might be able to remove (or bypass) the gray water system entirely. Boats without a gray water setup dump the sinks and shower overboard (often through a sump first).

You WILL need to replace the hoses. Whatever is carried in hoses eventually leaches into the hose wall. This is true for gas, oil, coolant and sewage. They all eventually get permeated with whatever's carried in them. If they're nine years old I'd say they're due. Do it now while you're already in a $hitty mood.

As has been suggested, pick up the phone and talk with Four Winns. They've been very helpful at addressing many of my rather complicated questions.

But, to me, it sounds like something just isn't right with how your setup is currently plumbed. Regardless of how it WAS plumbed, it would make sense to plumb it properly from this point forward. Since the hoses need replacing now is the time to get it set up right.

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Guppy,

I have a .pdf drawing of your layout. The manual states the following:

The grey water system is optional on Vista™ models. The water from the galley sink, head sink and shower will drain into a sump and is pumped into a grey water holding tank respectively. The waste level indicator is located in the head compartment. A pumpout fitting labeled WASTE but designated for grey water is provided on the deck.

The description above would suggest there are separate pump outs for the waste and grey tanks. They should be on the port side of the boat and next to each other. I hope this helps!

_________________
2002 Vista 298 VP 5.0Gxi

Thanks for the replies. I do have a gray water system. I have two pump outs, and have been able to figure out which one is for gray and black. I have four visible tanks in the boat (fresh (vberth), gray(starboard aft cushion), and it seems two blacks (port aft cushion and floor). I have been reading the manuals from the get go. It is unusual when I fill up water from the black water pumpout, I can hear the water fill up the belly tank, and then visibly see the top tank fill several minutes later. But when I pump out the water that I just filled through the same blackwater gasket, nothing empties out of the top tank. I'm not sure if the plumbing was wrong in the beginning, but I have talked to a couple technicians that have not seen this before and one verified that I'm correct in the flow of water.

_________________

2001 328 Vista

Previous Boats:
2004 Sea Ray 220 Select

Wow that is an unusual set-up. Obviously, call 4winns for advice, but it sounds like a customized system.

I'm think about this as I write. When you're filling the belly tank from the pump out, eventually it will fill. The water will back up in the pumpout hose until it reaches the level of the port tank (it's higher than the belly) Then it will push water through a hose (there must be a hose connecting the two) to the port tank. When using the toilet the pressure from the vacu-flush will also push the black water in and eventually to the port tank.

Does the port tank have a vent? Otherwise the water is in that tank it cannot easily escape. The belly tank must have a vent, so the pumpout will pull all that water out, then just suck air from the vent. You need gravity to let water fall back from the port tank to the belly tank.

My guess is either the port tank has no vent or it has a clogged vent.

_________________
2008 V358 Two-tone Blue V/P Dual Prop 320 HP
Lake Winnipesaukee, NH

I've been reading this thread and it seems to me that this extra tank is for overflow in case you are in a jam and the belly tank is full. Trace the hoses or replace them as bill indicated and I thnk you will find a check valve in the line. I would be tempted to disconnect this tank and cap the belly tank transfer connection since your levels are only monitored on the belly tank anyways.... Remove this tank completely and you've gained some valuable storage space. Or if you really want the extra capacity then you'll have to add a pumpout fitting just for this tank. Or you need to disconnect the vent on the belly tank and add one to the upper tank to help the water flow down to the lower tank when the pumpout machine is on.

_________________
Marc, Kathlin & Nathalie


'89 Chaparral Laser 32

'93 Vista 245, 5.8L w/ King Cobra

Former Boats
'01 H260, 7.4 VP Duoprop
'98 H200, 5.0 GL w/VP SX drive

Yeah, I'd lose the 2nd black water tank, if not the gray water setup too. I can't imagine under what circumstances the previous owner needed a 2nd black tank. For how long do you envision going between pump outs? Most (all?) fuel docks where we go have pump outs, so we pump the tank every time we gas up. That's typically every other weekend. I prefer not to leave any waste in the tank for more than a week so I'll use the pump out at our marina. The single tank is sufficient for this most of the time. I could see more trouble with the gray tank getting filled, thus I'd either get rid of it or put in a wye valve and an overboard through hull.

You do need to have the "don't flush excessively" conversation with your guests. I ask them to not use any more water and paper in the bowl than the bare minimum necessary. It might seem like an awkward conversation to have, but as you've discovered, tank troubles are so heinously nasty to clean up that you get over any shyness RIGHT QUICK.

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

You might have to cut the tank (messy) or the boat (work) to get that tank out of there. I'd try to find a way to have it work or at least be harmless.

_________________
2008 V358 Two-tone Blue V/P Dual Prop 320 HP
Lake Winnipesaukee, NH

Hi, I have a 2000 328 vista . I have the original build sheet , my boat was ordered with the additional 30 gal. holding tank. So now it holds 60 gal. I had only one problem when i first purchased it. the pump-out would not suck all the waste out, the vent hose was plugged, and after i uncloged it and changed the vent filter it was working ok. At the end of the season i was flushing the holding tanks with fresh water, and when using my overboard discharge a little 2" piece of white material came out of the bottom of my overboard discharge, it was one of those disposable wipes, and after that no more issues. PS I was working on my boat on my trailer at my home. I dont want the EPA after my marina. ALways use more water when flushing a lot of solids and make sure some one talks to the kids on board about tampons in the head, it the biggest cause for clogs there is, God Luck, Joe.

_________________
"Lady Lexie"
Port of Chester, WV
2000 328 Vista
Towed with a Dodge Cummins!

txvista: If you need a second hand to help, let me know. I am in Little Elm, so depending on when you need help, I may be able to be there. I have no experience with your boat, but sometimes a second hand is helpful.

_________________
Current Boat:
2004 Sea Ray 320 Sundancer "Nauti Luvin'"

Previous Boats:
1999 298 Vista "Seas The Day"
2008 H200SS "Nauti Luv"
2006 Tahoe Q4

Thanks again for the replies.

Lady Lexie, I have the same setup as you. But I already changed the vent filter, and it didn't seem to help. But it is good to know that my thinking is correct in having two black water tanks.

Aguyindallas, thanks for your offer. I may take you up on that, but not sure if I should put you through this since I have not met you in person yet. It is not going to be the cleanest job. I'll invite you down for a drink or a few when I'm finished.

I did call Four Winns today. He ran my serial number, and my boat was ordered with two 30 gallon black water tanks. He said that there is an 1 1/2 hose connecting the two tanks and there is not a check valve or anthing. Just a straight shot. Has anyone had any experience cutting into a holding tank before. I'm contemplating using a jigsaw or recipricating saw. Not sure what blade yet? I'm going to cut a hole big enough so I can get a snake in the hose, and then also give the tank a good scrubbing. I will cover the hole with a deckplate and seal it up. If I ever have this issue again, I will have access through the deckplate. Hopefully this will solve the issue.

Thanks again for your ideas,

_________________

2001 328 Vista

Previous Boats:
2004 Sea Ray 220 Select

Here's a thought, start by routing the hose around the extra tank. Cap it off and leave it in there. At least long enough to decide if the single tank is large enough to handle your typical needs. If it is then go about removing the other tank. If not, well, the old tank would still be there and you could re-rig the plumbing to it. My 348 has a single 30 gallon tank and it's enough for weekends, assuming I don't have lots of guests aboard. That and as I mentioned before, it's just nasty leaving wastes in there. It will eventually leech out so it's best to empty it promptly.

If you do cut it up I'd go with a rough tooth blade and keep the speed relatively low. Too fast and you'll heat the polyethylene plastic up too much and gum up the blade. I'd probably use a jigsaw as a reciprocating Sawzall (aka the "Destroyzall") tends to wander too much. The last thing you want is the saw to jump around and wreck something el$e. It might also be a good idea to use a rotozip with the router depth set shallow enough to avoid letting the bit go too deep when near other materials. A dremel might not have enough torque to handle cutting that sort of material (at least not without burning up the Dremel in the process).

Don't know what's the best pattern to use when cutting out the tank. I'd probably aim for something that left as large a set of pieces as possible for getting out of the hole. With emphasis on the bottom pieces staying as large as possible (to avoid dealing with the filthier bits, if such a thing is possible).

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista