www.iFourWinns.com

Bill,

I respectfully have to disagree with your comparison of boats Vs. cars with regard to a warranty. If you go to the dictionary, warranty means the same for cars, boats, phones, houses etc. A company makes a promise to repair or replace an item for a specific period of time.

Now if you want to talk about manufacturing processes, trying to compare a car to a boat is much as you say. Trying to compare the quality, or why things go wrong on boats Vs. cars, again I defer to you.

That's partially why cars can come with longer warranties compared to boats. Boats are operated in harsher environments and under more extreme conditions than your typical automobile. Marrying all the components together is innately more difficult to keep free from problems compared to automobiles.

But again, the manufacturer decides to warrant a product based on many factors including pride in workmanship, customer demand, and competition in the marketplace. The fact that many of the components used to build and fit a boat already have warranties is also a factor.

The manufacturer calculates very carefully how much money to allocate for warranty work when determining unit costs. They factor in the quality of their product as well as the amount of claims history its dealers bill for. The warranty is not "Free" to the end user, it is already paid for upfront with the purchase of the product and for that reason I am upset. I have had to pay twice, once for the initial product and then again to fix a repair that was promised to me not once, but twice. Once when I bought the boat and then again when I asked FW and or its representatives for permission to use their recommended repair facility for warranted work.

Four Winns distinguishes itself from the majority of the boating industry by offering a two year warranty where most of the competition only provides one year. That can be a strategy to lure customers from other manufacturers, or a statement of pride in workmanship and mastery of manufacturing techniques. It could also be to overcome a bad reputation for quality like Chrysler did many years ago with their lifetime power train warranty or more recently, Hyundai did to overcome their quality issues during the eighties.

Both of those companies put those warranties out there to let us know that they stood behind their products with confidence that the quality had improved. In Chrysler's case, I really don't think the quality did improve, it was more a marketing ploy which ultimately hasn't worked. In Hyundai's case, it actually has worked since their quality has greatly improved where they are not compared to Yugos anymore but rather Honda and Toyota who have excellent quality scores.

Why do you think GM tried desperately to avoid bankruptcy? They didn't want consumers to lose confidence in their products and migrate to a more financially secure brand. That was one of the reasons the government intervened was to allay the fears of the buying public as to warranties.

That's why I think FW has made a big mistake in not honoring the warranty for me and others, boaters talk and bad talk isn't good!

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2008 Four Winns V358 (T 6.2L Merc Bravo III's with DTS and SeaCore)
2006 Sea Ray 340DA
2006 Sea Ray 320DA
2005 Maxum 3100 SE

Who other than you on here has not had warranty work honored? Based on what I have read, all the replies to this post were either where someone had warranty work completed by the dealer or they were still waiting to have it completed. I don't think there was one reply that stated the warranty work was not honored.

I think what happened here was that you grew impatient (and rightly so) and jumped the gun in getting your repairs completed prior to the authorized dealer and FW working out the specifics. Like I stated earlier, when I needed warranty work done on my 2000 Vista, it was always a difficult and lengthy process but it was eventually completed. However, it was always the dealer who would call me up and let me know when FW authorized the work and then we set up a time to do the repair. It was never me authorizing the work in advance but given the loss of your original dealer due to the economy, I can certainly understand how you ended up where you are. Good post and it details one of the historic frustrations of boat ownership.

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Current Boat: 2000 Four Winns 298 Vista
Previous Boat: 2000 Carver 406MY

My point had nothing to do with dictionary definitions and everything to do with interactions with the factory through dealers. Arguing semantics is rather pointless when dealing with real world hassles.

As you'll recall I had my own series of much more complicated hassles, all of which were "covered" by the warranty. I chose to have FW supply me the parts and do the work myself. It took labor on my part but I made time to make it work. I chose to avoid the dealer because of problematic results on past work (and that's been kind). I chose to avoid involving a 3rd party because I wanted to avoid learning how another company could make things worse. This worked for me and FW was pretty cooperative during the ordeal (not that it didn't take a lot of e-mails and phone calls). My efforts went outside the normal warranty process, as did yours. I had to suck it up and "pay for it" with my time and sweat. It was worth it for me because it kept the boat usable during the work.

I shake my head and wonder how owners with boats without a local dealer get timely work performed. Yeah, for a high-end Pershing or Sunseeker it might be trivial to have mechanics flown in from overseas. But for anything less than a mega-yacht I can only imagine the hassles of "warranty" work.

If my next boat purchase is a new one you can bet I'll do a lot of research into current and recent performance of warranty work done for that brand and model in my boating area.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

No, I called/emailed FW first to get approval back in the beginning of the season (April) and was given the green light and those invoices were never paid. That repair was b/c my generator kept tripping my battery charger which was determined to be a ground wire attached to the engine mount not being tight enough which caused the ground to overheat and popping my charger. That repair was an ongoing (covered) issue from last summer and we did some elimination of likely sources by replacing the "House Breaker" in the panel at the stern, which did not solve the problem. That and a couple of minor other things like the shower sump pump not working properly. I even tried to avoid the hassle of dealing with the sump issue at the end of last summer by replacing the unit myself. All of the above were covered in the 348/358 area of this forum.

The repair facility then returned to my boat to fix a bad Molex plug which grounded out my entire dashboard which was a repeat issue from last season. That occurred mid-season this year. That issue was fixed or so we thought by straightening out the few wires and receptacles in the molex plug, but it did not work. When they came this time, they actually cut out the molex and just put loops on the ground wires and attached them to existing posts which solved the problem. The repair facility also fixed a bad seal in the toilet which allowed the water to continuously drain from the bowl. I don't think any of the mentioned items would qualify as frivolous or not warrantable at all, but I am not FW. The toilet I could see perhaps, if they attribute the bad seal to wear and tear but most dealers (if I had one) would have likely covered that as well.

I have used the warranty very judiciously as I know FW has an added cost not using a dealership. I replaced my speakers that went bad myself, I have repaired other items at my own expense that I could handle myself just to avoid the hassle. But the big stuff that I know has nothing to do with my use or wear and tear should be coverable items.

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2008 Four Winns V358 (T 6.2L Merc Bravo III's with DTS and SeaCore)
2006 Sea Ray 340DA
2006 Sea Ray 320DA
2005 Maxum 3100 SE

Which is exactly why I began this thread, to give people researching boats and brands some insight as to what is going on in the industry!

Read my next post and see that I too have done some "Self-warranty" work just to avoid the hassle. And I know about your drama with the not mentioned dealership in Baltimore, which is one of the reasons I am dealing with this other company based on talking to you about that particular dealership!

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2008 Four Winns V358 (T 6.2L Merc Bravo III's with DTS and SeaCore)
2006 Sea Ray 340DA
2006 Sea Ray 320DA
2005 Maxum 3100 SE

Heard from FW just now and the invoices have been approved and submitted to corporate for payment. No telling when that might be, but a step in the right direction is a step...Come on FW.

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2008 Four Winns V358 (T 6.2L Merc Bravo III's with DTS and SeaCore)
2006 Sea Ray 340DA
2006 Sea Ray 320DA
2005 Maxum 3100 SE

Better Luck,

They are trying aren't they?

I just have to wonder if you are like the one guy I know, who bought a new Fridge and it was advertised as 19.8 cubic feet so he took it home and measured it and it was 19.6 cubic feet and he threw a fit, and eventually Sears came and picked up the new Fridge, took it back, gave him his money back and said "There is no pleasing you!"

I hope I'm wrong and I hope FW comes through with a level of satisfaction that you will agree to and come back and say "Four Winns made it right".

I guess we'll see!

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Brett DiMichele

No, he sounds like one of those guys who pays top dollar for a product and then when the product fails he expects the manufacturer to fix it in a timely manner.

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Current Boat: 2000 Four Winns 298 Vista
Previous Boat: 2000 Carver 406MY

Yeah well, you learn to lower your expectations when you get into boating...

Hate to sound cynical but it's rare to get stellar anything in this niche.

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Brett DiMichele

I have to admit...Brett, you are right. I am in the car business. I can tell you that if customers had to put up with the service headaches, slow to get service/repair and just a general lack of a fire under their asses....less people would own cars. Anytime I have to take my boat in, I take their time estimate and double it. Usually, with that formula...I am still let down.

I guess working at an Acura dealer for so long has allowed me to get my expectations higher than maybe they should be. Thank heavens I dont work at Mercedes etc...I would just sell my damn boat because I am sure I would feel even more let down than I already do.

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Current Boat:
2004 Sea Ray 320 Sundancer "Nauti Luvin'"

Previous Boats:
1999 298 Vista "Seas The Day"
2008 H200SS "Nauti Luv"
2006 Tahoe Q4

Brett why would you think that I could possibly be someone like the fridge guy?

I am definitely more like 298Vista2000 describes but not even close to being too picky. My main beef is exactly as I stated in my initial post. My biggest issue is, (and hopefully soon I can say "Was") not honoring obligations and going back on ones word.

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2008 Four Winns V358 (T 6.2L Merc Bravo III's with DTS and SeaCore)
2006 Sea Ray 340DA
2006 Sea Ray 320DA
2005 Maxum 3100 SE

Good to hear things are at least moving forward. I submitted some claims to my dealer a few days ago. I also replaced the speakers on my own, and I got a "deal" getting 4 for around $200. They said that I need to send them down to them so they can forward them to FW for inspection. They did say that it used to be they would drop ship new ones and then you could swap when you got them. I knew that would never happen these days so that's why I bought them new myself. No big deal, is what it is. Fortunately, the parts from other vendors are being replaced fast. My E80 display was cracked so they are sending a new one right out. The FW parts (knob for a cabinet, stay for the freezer) will probably take longer. I asked for new steps and I'm still waiting for those. No show stoppers though, fortunately!

Funny part was I asked for one panel of isenglass to be replaced. As I hardly ever use the isenglass (only used the forward panels one time on labor day this year). I unloaded them all from the boat soon after delivery. They were rolled up and mostly stuffed under the aft seat. Not exactly packed away how I requested! So I spent a lot of time cleaning them. They weren't available for me to look at when I went to FL to sea trial since "they were being cleaned." When I finally broke out and cleaned the forward panels there was a big scuff/scratch on the starboard panel, right in my line of sight. So I asked that this panel be replaced. The scuff is not normal wear and tear and shouldn't have been delivered that way. They shot back quick saying it's not warranted since it's six months after delivery. My reply was that it's not a FW issue in the first place, it's a dealer issue. I guarantee FW didn't deliver the isenglass like that! The dealer should step up and replace the panel. So the dealer service writer will hold a discussion with the owners on it...

Hey, how come Cap'n didn't answer your question BL? He never vaporizes from a thead!

Some questions don't warrant a response.

I think things are working out for BL, as I thought they would....... eventually.

I will now underwelminghly vaporize myself from this thread.

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

It would be cool to know what parts you make! I'll make some room in my pm box

Some questions don't warrant a response.

totally filled with intrigue.......LOL

I think things are working out for BL, as I thought they would....... eventually.

When the money is in my bank account, I will be happy!


I will now underwelminghly vaporize myself from this thread.


So soon? We were just getting to know each other, darn it, hate when that happens.

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2008 Four Winns V358 (T 6.2L Merc Bravo III's with DTS and SeaCore)
2006 Sea Ray 340DA
2006 Sea Ray 320DA
2005 Maxum 3100 SE