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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:09 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:36 pm
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Location: Middle TN
First, sorry about a long post but I thought I'd give up the details and ask for any ideas or answers?
I've got 5.7gsi tbi volvo engines. I've had to rework the heads and valves on both engines in the past 2 yrs, (tuliped valves and head gasket). But until recently they have both ran great. About 3 weeks ago I noticed the port engine idleing very rich. Strong smell of gas, bluish black smoke, and spongy slow throttle response. Time for a tune-up right?
So, did all of the standard stuff- plugs, rotor, cap, plug wires, fuel filter, even new ignition. Checked all the sensor connections and even swapped the TBS, Map, AIC. Checked flame arrestor - clean.
Here's the mystery- I swapped the ECM with the good engine and the problem followed. Now the Starboard engine is running rich and port side is purring just like it should. So I'm guessing computer, great I bet that's cheap.
I have a mechanic that can bring a diacom out to the dock and hook it up, but not for a few more weeks.
So I took the ecm to a performance boat engine builder that has a cumputerized dyno and can program ecms. He pluged it in and compared to factory calibrations and everything was fine. Still didn't believe it, so I shipped the ecm to another company that unlocks and reprograms ecms. Once again, said nothing was wrong with it. I had him flash it and recalibrate with factory calibrations.
Pluged it back in - same story, swap the computer and the problem follows.
I know I'll find out more once the diacom is hooked up, but it doesn't make sense. Volvo and FW dealer says to replace the mefi 3 computer with newer mefi 4, plus wiring harness. $2,240.00 Are you kidding?
I appreciate any help, thanks...

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:23 pm 
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If you swapped the ecm's and the problem followed (ecm), it has to be the ecm. Would be nice if you could borrow one and try it. I know that's a long-shot, but would give you an answer, for sure.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:44 am 
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ridepate wrote:
If you swapped the ecm's and the problem followed (ecm), it has to be the ecm. Would be nice if you could borrow one and try it. I know that's a long-shot, but would give you an answer, for sure.


He did borrow one, from one to the next.

He needs to get ripped off severely in order use his boat.
He needs to be held hostage by the manufacture that already built in the price of R & D of making the ECM software into the numbers of boats they know they will sell.
He cannot expect for such a high price, that it will be covered for very long. Even though the replacement part only costs less than $100.00 to make. At these prices, it should have a life time warranty on it.

Most of this stuff is from the automotive market with different power curves. Same type of sensors calculate in the same manor.

Sorry, it just really pisses me off when I have been an engineer for so long getting this shit made so cheap.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:33 am 
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"Volvo and FW dealer says to replace the mefi 3 computer with newer mefi 4, plus wiring harness. $2,240.00 Are you kidding?" With the above in the back of your minds!!

From what you stated it sound like a bad computer, when it is in the real world. $2,200.00 and a agree is out of the question!! But what about a mefi 3 computer?? I am sure you already thought of that, so I am thinking that you can't buy them as "new". How about used??

In some ways, you are lucky that you are able to do the work your self, and a 2nd engine to trouble shoot with. I am very handy, but I don't think I would have gotten as far as you!! The last engine I rebuilt was a 69 Chevy 327 in 1976.


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:55 am 
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Nauti Luv

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Location: Little Elm - Lake Lewisville TX
Honestly...it seems to me that YOU have isolated it by your troubleshooting to be the ECM. I am trying to get through my head how a mechanic said that the problem is something else, when YOU have verified it.....

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:33 am 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:36 pm
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Location: Middle TN
Yeah, so far it doesn't make a lot of sense. Volvo and FW's answer is mefi 4, because the mefi 3 has been discontinued. I've started looking for a used mefi 3. Hopefully I find something else when the mechanic brings out his diacom and hooks it up.
The positive side is we can still use the boat. Stay a little closer to the marina, and just use the rich engine for docking.
Hey, what would I expect, it's a boat. I'll keep you updated. Maybe it's something simple and overlooked.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:49 pm 
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Seahorse

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:01 pm
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Location: Richmond, VA
There might be an explanation for why the computer swap shifted the symptoms to another engine even though there is nothing wrong with either ECM. It could be a simple sensor issue and you should definitely consider that option before replacing an ECM. The MEFI 3 ECM has 'sensor replacement' logic that allows it to identify a failed sensor (ie: consistent readings outside of what would be considered normal) and replace the actual sensor data with a default value. The idea is that pretty much any sensor can fail and the engine can still limp home. Pretty nice feature really when you consider that a poorly running engine is a LOT better than a dead engine.

If your ECM determined a sensor was outside of normal, then it would continue to run in this 'sensor replacement' mode until a significant amount of time had passed where the sensed value was within the normal range OR the ECM was reset via the MDTC scan tool. It might be possible, that this sequence of events happened:

1. A sensor value fell outside of the normal range for some period of time. Probably the fuel pressure, coolant temp, intake air temp, or MAP sensor if I had to guess.
2. Your ECM determined that sensor had failed and replaced the reading with a default value that made the engine run rich. Remember a rich default is better than a lean default.
3. You swapped ECMs to your other engine without resetting it and it still thought that same sensor (on the different engine) was bad because not enough 'good' reading had been read in order for it to reset itself.

I don't know how long the ECM needs to see a 'good' reading before it starts using the real sensor data again. I also don't know if it is based on the number of engine starts or runtime. I believe it takes quite a while of normal running before it will reset that sensor channel and use the measured value again. I also don't know if disconnecting the ECM for a short period of time would reset it automatically. I don't think so. The nice thing about these ECM's is that the MDTC tool will tell you: 1. if this condition is active and 2. exactly what sensor is creating the problem.

My advice: I would definitely have someone scan the ECM and read out any DTCs stored in it prior to replacing it. You might just have a simple sensor issue that can be solved for less than $50 in parts. Get a code reader and rule this simple fix out before you throw big money at it. Here is one I Googled up for $59:

http://www.michiganmotorz.com/codemate-tester-mefi-code-reader-p-513.html

Good Luck!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:03 pm 
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jeep is probably right. I did'nt even think of that...............Bad sensors will tell the ECM somethings wrong and it will act accordingly.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:35 am 
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Very interesting, that sounds like a very probably explanation. If boats had an engine check light like cars do, you and you could read the code with a generic code reader like the OBD II ones, these problems would be easier to figure out. As much as I like fuel injection in my vehicles, in boats I'm not as convinced of the benefits because of the operational differences of boats, namely sitting for months at a time, open vent fuel systems, and the issue of possible water in the fuel. Its easier and cheaper by far to get a carb rebuilt or even replace an older Q-Jet with a Marine Edelbrock than to deal with some of the FI system issues of today, the high frequency of fuel pump failures and cost of replacement on some Volvo engines is disturbing. On my boats I like carbs and mechanical fuel pumps!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:23 am 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:36 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Middle TN
Latest update, and Dukeschuff I feel your pain trying to get a diagnosis.
I actually took Jeepman's advice and bought a codemate from Rinda, and no codes were set. I even unplugged the temp sensor to make sure the codemate was working properly and it did register after I unplugged it.
So my next plan is to swap the ecms and run the engines for the weekend and see if they will reset the values after actually running, not just idleing in the slip.
I'm not sure about other markets, but around here it's almost impossible to get a good mechanic to show up at the dock in the middle of the season. I can't blame them, I know they have to make money when they can.
I spoke with Rinda tech about the diacom software, $ 580.00 for everything I need isn't really that bad. You figure $150 and hr for a mechanic that I might wait a month for and it starts to make sense. My only hesitation is that I buy the software and it still doesn't help.
Besides, I've started to build a Jeep and now my hobbies are fighting each other. I guess that's part of the game...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:49 am 
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Seahorse

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:01 pm
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Location: Richmond, VA
It sounds like it is time to flow test your injectors. Or, since you have a spare set on your other engine, swap injectors one cylinder at time and see if you can find a bad one. This would be about the only thing left that the ECM is not getting some sort of feedback on. Also of interest would be your fuel rail pressure. There is a gauge port on the fuel rail. Measure this on both engines at different engine loads to make sure there are no differences.

Disclaimer: If you are not comfortable and familiar with working on a pressurized fuel systems on a boat, then you should not attempt this. If you are comfortable doing it and you have the correct tools, then you should have two large dry chemical fire extinguishers handy. One next to you in the engine bay and another at the helm in case you have to evacuate the engine bay.

Please post back what you find out.

EDIT: There is of course the possibility it really is a bad ECM as you originally suggested!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:13 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:36 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Middle TN
Well, here is the latest. I finally got a marine mechanic to come out to dock and hook up the diacom software and monitor the engines. The suspect engine looked pretty good on the diacom except the Map sensor readings were 2x the "good" engine. The fuel flow was more than 2x what it should be. Mechanic started talking about vacuum leaks, burnt valves, manifold leaks etc.. Once again I swapped the ecm and the symptoms followed the ecm.
So a few theories-
1. Bad map sensor - ecm then sets a default value and uses this for map sensor readings. However the numbers did change with the trottle. This might explain why the problem follows the ecm.
If I try a new Map sensor, How long (how many starts or run time) before the ecm takes the correct readings and corrects itself?
2. Bad ecm - the ecm is not interpreting the map sensor data correctly. If this is the case, I've read they can be reprogrammed, but I'm not sure if it's damaged or not.

Maybe I could just strap a couple outboards onto the swim platform and call it a day. Yeah I know, Outboards have computers also. Sailboat? I'm not ready to retire yet. Canoe?

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Lakebum
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:05 am 
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I read the whole story I hope you get to the bottom of the problem. Also, thank you for giving me a view of what I possibly have in store for me when they deliver my 2008 H220SS I hope things go well for me since I am a first time boat owner and first time on this forum also. I am like an expectant father waiting, waiting, waiting...


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:06 am 
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If you changed the MAP, you should clear the ECM.

Also, check all the connections from the MAP to the ECM and use dielectric grease on connections.

I would check prices on MAP. I bet it is a fraction of that ECM. Change it first as that is what the code came up.

Search around to find if anyone rebuilds that ECM also.

I searched and there are many to choose from.


http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7hJYOwNOGHMAWhRXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDUCMyNzY2Njc5BF9yAzIEYW8DMARmcgN5ZnAtdC03MDEtcwRmcjIDc2J0bgRuX2dwcwMwBHF1ZXJ5A2VjbSByZWJ1aWxkZXJzIG1lcmNydWlzZXIEc2FvAzEEdW5kZWZpbmVkA3VuZGVmaW5lZAR1bmRlZmluZWQDdW5kZWZpbmVkBHVuZGVmaW5lZAN1bmRlZmluZWQ-?p=ecm+rebuilders+mercruiser&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701-s&type_param=

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:45 am 
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This is way I love these forums, you learn form them! I am NOT good at ECM problems or I should say, never had one so I have no experience with them.


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