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LouC · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:58 am

Graham they steal drives here all the time, I take mine off and store it in the garage for that reason...

Ric, I agree, modern FW bowriders have a lot of wasted space and difficult engine access. They look good, but are not functional. My old 88 is more functional both in terms of room, engine access and it's 20'9" long, which is a foot longer than late model 200s. Also has a 21* deadrise, which is a true deep V and is very stable.

My neighbor has a Key West 2020 dual console, it has as much room as FW bowriders up to 23 feet, much more functional and far less work to maintain. And less expensive, even with a Yamaha 4 stroke.
I do still have a soft spot for the simple Chevy V8/V6s I grew up with, there is no better engine cost wise, but in marine applications in salt water an I/O is more work for sure. They all have their pros and cons, I have hung on to my old one because of the functionality advantages, and low cost of repairs. But if I were buying a new boat today, unfortunately not much that FW makes interests me.

ric · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:08 am

The integrated sundeck/swim deck is just an easy way to sell a smaller boat as a bigger boat for more money.

It would be no different if I added as swim deck to my 18ft and tried to to sell it as a 21ft bowrider. Add 3-4ft of cheap fiberglass = can now sell boat for 20k more.

scotchwater · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:06 pm

Ric, I agree with "cheating" the true length of boats by adding sun pads and swim steps, but I shopped most high end boats before deciding on my 260. I don't care how long it really is, but it has almost every design feature I was looking for be it a true 26' or 22' boat. It is coast guard certified and hold 14 adults (more than I will probably every have on board), and the sun pad turns into loungers with backrests and is the reason I bought this model. The helm and walk through to the swim step is talked about by everyone that gets on my boat. Some people hate big blocks, some don't. Bottom line is that some people prefer mercedes, some prefer bmw's....some toyotas, some hondas. People have both choices and opinions and if they have the money they are entitled to both!

Afterthought.......it kinda seems the smaller you go in length (ie" 22',21',20'...) the more you notice the wasted space and lack of seating. Just my 2cents.....

230 Mike · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:24 pm

ric wrote:

Nearly 7 FEET is wasted space of sun deck/swim deck.

Depends on how the owner uses the boat. I don't doubt it would be wasted space if you owned it, but there are quite a few people who have a different opinion, and most of them are just as valid.

There's definitely a sector of the boating population that doesn't care about anything but floor space and outboards. Four Winns probably isn't the brand they should own, and that's OK too. Choices are great things.

ric · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:40 pm

I never said I wouldn't use it, it's just a way to sell a boat bigger then what it really is for more $$. They stopped making non sundeck models (almost every boat company) for the only reason of instead of someone buying an 18ft non sundeck for 35k, now they need to buy a 22-24 boat to get that same amount of room for 50k. What does it cost Four Winns to make an 2011 H240 hull in fiberglass compared to a mid 2000s H180 non sundeck with just as much room? Maybe $500, and they're profiting 15-20k more per boat for just a slight redesign because it forces people to buy "bigger" boats.

Smart

scotchwater · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:24 pm

Are you kidding me???? You're going to put over 2000 lbs of people on an H180 boat and go through 3' swells just as good as a H240 with the same load??? AND, all for only $500 bucks more??? First of all, the max weight capacity is half of the H240 not counting amenities and little things like speed and ride.....

Did you used to sell ice to Eskimo's????

ric · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:54 pm

scotchwater wrote:

Are you kidding me???? You're going to put over 2000 lbs of people on an H180 boat and go through 3' swells just as good as a H240 with the same load??? AND, all for only $500 bucks more??? First of all, the max weight capacity is half of the H240 not counting amenities and little things like speed and ride.....

Did you used to sell ice to Eskimo's????

I'm not talking about toys or engine packages. I'm talking about boat hull size. The difference between a 2011 H180LE and a 2011 H240 is really only around a foot. The extra 5 feet that makes a H240 an H240 is the integrated swim deck that's molded in the back. Cut off the swim deck that is now molded as part of the boat to give it it's 24ft length, and you're left with a 19ft boat. That sir, is selling ice to Eskimo's. Why sell swim decks for a $1000, when you can mold it on the hull, call the boat a size 4ft bigger then what it really is, and sell it for 20k more since it's "bigger". Genius!

scotchwater · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:11 pm

2011 H240 LOA: 24'0"
2011 180LE LOA: 17' 4"
------
6'8"

I hear what you are trying to say, but with or with the added cost and length for a swim step, there's just no way to compare apples with apples. It is DEFINITELY a marketing tool to make a boat longer than it is, but just how much and what the true mark up is hard to compare. Call the H240 whatever you want, but don't call it a 180LE in disguise. At any rate, I'm not buying what you're selling......

Graham R · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:28 pm

OK, ny 2004 245 Sundowner is a lot longer overall than my 1999 225 Sundowner was, because of that swim platform (nice to have, but a pain in the, well, whatever for a couple of reasons, It makes accessing and even inspecting the drive and props impossible without getting in the (very cold water!) and it amplifies the noise from the exhaust

The 2' or whatever it is hull length makes a BIG difference to the way the 245 handles rough water, but I suspect it's not the whole story. Weight an perhaps a very slightly wider beam probably has an effect as well.

Graham

Graham R · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:32 pm

LouC wrote:

Graham they steal drives here all the time, I take mine off and store it in the garage for that reason...

.

Lou,

Some cases here of big outboards being cur off boats afloat on moorings; not easy with an outdrive, unless you're a diver !

No comments from anyone about outboards with cat converters? I can't imagine the ignition/ injection processors on them are so sophisticated they could meet emissions requirements without them fitted, unless the requirements are not the same ? If so, why aren't they the same requirements ? Maybe a bit like in Europe when Cat converters came in tin the late 1980s/ early 1990's; All cars needed them, but even the biggest engined motorbikes didn't !

Graham

LouC · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:46 pm

I had heard that cats for OBs was in the works, but I need to do a bit of research to find out when they may be added, I agree they will be an abomination on OBs, but I still do not like the idea of something getting that hot in the engine box of an I/O...
BTW, I measured the temps of my new exhaust manifolds with an IR gun, the hottest they got (top of riser portion) was 130* F, and that's pretty hot, how much hotter will a manifold with a cat in it get?? I know they have safety features if cooling water gets cut off but I don't like the idea of it going into safe mode at the most inopportune moment....

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