www.iFourWinns.com

Brett,

I thought Bill's response was a little harsh myself.
Just for the record, and as I said in my post, my thought on the need for radar on my 248, was just that...only my opinion...based on my boating practices at this time. If you think radar would benefit you based on your boating needs...then by all means, go for it. I would ask a guy like JValich what he thinks about an appropriate arch set up for you...he seems to know everything about these boats, and always seems happy/willing to give good advice to those asking...and not criticism.

Anyway, one last though...our "wee" little 248 vistas are not really wee little boats at all. They are awesome. After all, how may people in the general population are fortunate enough to own a boat at all, much less one like we have. Yes, there are bigger and better boats out there...but lets all keep it in perspective. We are lucky guys to have these boats.

HBender

Well, not sure if it's 'sage' or not. Don't get me wrong, I realize I tend to put a somewhat skeptical spin on it. I'm not the one calling anyone's boat small so just forget that line of commentary. I'm just casting a skeptical eye on just what is or isn't practical.

Having helped a friend remove an arch on a 28' this last winter I'd say it was a fair bit over 300lbs and that was WITHOUT the gear on it. I suppose there's a chance a tubular one, wakeboard-style, might weigh in at a lot less. Under 200, maybe. Then start adding stuff to it (including the wires) and it really starts adding up. To say nothing of the added structure for mounting it.

At what speed do you think you'll be able to safely pull a PWC? For what distance? In what sort of seas?

As for going anywhere, comfort in a 248 vs larger boats is subjective. I've seen plenty of poor souls in 24 footers stuck POUNDING their way back to home port in the chop we get daily here on the Chesapeake. They're getting there, and the captain may well be 'comfortable' with the handling, the passengers however... Heh.

But then again, on a glass-smooth lake somewhere, socked in by fog, radar would be handy. Rather pointless to get larger open array types though since there's not going to be much open distance to cover. Open ocean with an open array mounted high on a tuna tower, you bet. But on an express boat's low arch it's just wasted wattage for no appreciable benefit. It's not high enough, or is the terrain low enough, to even being to do anything more than what you'd get with a small closed array.

You're definitely NOT going to get useful weather info off it. You'd be much better served with satellite weather. The latest Garmin units are pretty impressive. I'm not quite sold on their day-to-day usability however. But that's fodder for a whole other thread.

I can definitely see adding the windlass, they're a handy add-on to any boat that has room for them and a rode locker. If only to help avoid dealing with the muck pulled up on the rode. I'm planning to add a wash-down hose to make it even less messy. But one type of add-on does not equal another.

Hey, I'm all for the idea of adding stuff. Experience, however, often reveals that by the time you've spent the money and expended the effort it often ends up being more trouble than simply making the trade up something that already has it. This is true for a lot more than boats too..

So don't get me wrong, just consider the opinions offered when weighing the arguments on what YOU decide to do with your own boat. At least we're all ON boats, right?

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Bill,

Let's make sure we are on the same page here... I have no intentions on towing a PWC with my 248 nor do I want a wakeboard tower. Those were not my wants or needs. My 248 does not pull anything other than it's self I am not into tubing and no one that rides aboard will be tubing or sking or wakeboarding behind my cruiser.

I want a flat out Radar Arch, a place to mount a RADAR unit and a Terrestrial TV Antenna and possibly a Direct TV Dish. Nothing else (aside from an All Around Light).

This is a Custom Atlantic Radar Arch $1900.00 for cruisers:


That is made out of 2" OD aluminum tube. I doubt that arch weighs more than 100lbs so we're looking at maybe 250/275 lbs with a Radome, Terrestrial TV Antenna and a Dish setup. I do not beleive that will radically alter the way the boat handles and the nice thing about an Atlantic Arch is that they utilize the stock canvas so I wouldn't have to shell out another three grand on custom canvas for it.

I guess I just don't understand why it would be an issue or be silly of me to want an arch on a 248, considering how much larger the 248 is over say a Chapparal 240, and the 240 comes out of the factory with a finished arch and it even looks good on the boat.. And there's no written law anywhere that says boats under 30' shouldn't have Radar.. I DO night boating.. When the sun goes down, 99.999% of the boating population runs for the ramp or docks... I enjoy staying out... Running around, dropping anchor somewhere and spending the weekend... And having a Radar is a safety item for me.. The TV stuff is just gingerbread..

_________________
Brett DiMichele

Guy's I am proud of ya, finishing off so nice! But seriously take the emotions out of it, and maybe some bad choice of words, and I have to say that I can agree with what I think you are both saying!

I agree with Brett that a radar arch or a tower on the Vista is a desirable thing, whether it's a 248; 268; or larger! I have the radar arch on my 268, and I think it is great. IT gives me a good place to mount the GPS antenna, the 360 degree white lite is up there, so I do not have to deal with the pole every time I want the lights, and I also am considering a TV antenna, although that is not a major consideration, just nice to have. It also gives me a great wire/cable chase to get from one side of the boat to the other.

As far as Radar goes, I have come so close to putting it on my boat so many times, it's not funny! I gotta tell you, the fog can roll in before you know it, especially on the South Shore of LI, not to mention going out to BLock Island, and I also absolutely love boating at Night! The only reason I haven't purchased a Radar unit is simply that I AM A CHEAP BAST_ _ _! I happen to think that the open array has some real benefits especially since the beamwidth on the open array's range from 1 to 2 degrees vs the beamwidth on the domes of closer to 4 to 5 degrees, giving the open array's much better target separatrion and definition. This really comes in handy if you want to avoid the crazy drunks running around at night in really small boats.

Now, I can also understand what Bill is saying as many of the upgrades I want to do on my 268Vista, I have simply held off on, because I know I will and seriously want to upgrade to a larger Vista in the near future, so why waste all my $ for somebody elses benefit. There comes a point of no return where it is better to upgrade the whole boat! When I get the 288 or the 318 or bigger, I will make sure all these things are included.

As far as taking a 248 comfortably any place a 348 can go, I beg to differ! Go out to the Atlantic between LI and NJ in 4 to 6 Ft seas with 25Knot winds in the 248, or the 268 for that matter, and you will wish you were in a 348, I kid you not! The extra weight alone makes a huge difference! Having said that, I am extremely pleased with the performance of the 268 (probably not too different than the 248) hull. My hull rides "MUCH DRIER" than many of my buddies with larger boats. I think overall Four Winns has done a good job with their hull designs.

The Good News here is that no matter what size or style, most Four Winns Owners Love their boats!

Happy Boating to All,
Jim.

_________________
'04 FW 268Vista "Andiamo"

Looks like a nice setup. Might be just the right solution for you.

The PWC towing question was a response to another port in the thread, sorry if that was confusing.

I also like to boat at night now and then. With the exception of rain or pitch black, no-moon nights I've never had radar tell me more than what my eyes, chartplotter and prudent speed already told me. Even an unlit fishing boat was visible enough to the eye before the radar target was confirmed. That is, by the time the slight blip registered and my brain parsed where it was in correlation to the water ahead I'd already seen it. Your eye's own night vision and not traveling at planing speeds tells you a lot. Trying to juggle that along with radar (and avoiding crab pots) just doesn't quite work for me at night.

One thing that's really problematic is the reduction in night vision caused by the radar display. By the time you turn it down low enough to avoid wrecking your night vision you can't effectively read it! I need to see bottom depths if I'm not in a channel. It's tough to have them visible along with the radar overlay and not wreck the night vision. Now, if I had two displays with one showing the old-school vector sweeps and the chartplotter on night palette colors then maybe. But even on a 348 there isn't enough room at the helm for that much glass.

Now, daytime during fog or rain is another matter. I have found the radar sweeps over the chart to be useful. But trying to juggle marking MARPA targets on the radar while the boat's getting tossed around in a storm just doesn't quite work safely. At least not for me.

Honestly, this is not as an argument against radar. Were it not included on the boat from the factory I doubt it would been on my list of things to add. It's handy, no argument there, just somewhat short of justifying it's expense.

As for TV antenna, save your money (or check with others first). Around here there's not much TV signal you can effectively pick up from an express boat arch. Sailboats and big cruisers seem to have much better luck with the antenna way up on the mast. Most TV stations don't seem to have effective coverage over water. That and structures on shore always seem to get in the way when you're in a slip or anchored near shore. I just my netflix queue up to date instead. That and letting the Tivo back home record what I'd miss.

I thought about rigging up a Tivo on the boat connected to either shore cable or a DirecTV dish on a piling. But there's no 'good' place to stash a Tivo unit on board. And the $3k+ price for a KVH stabilized satellite dish was a complete non-starter since the marina generally 'frowns on' putting a dish on the pilings.

I've not yet tried using a wifi link to watch from something like a slingbox. I've had pretty good success leeching free wifi using a 14db antenna on my arch. But the wife would give me a REALLY dirty look if I suggested jumping through that many hoops to just watch television.

But enough with the negatives, eh? Ask around on your local waters as to which size radomes or TV antennas are effective.

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

In my searches I've come across two more companies that make nice arches.

What do you think of the look of these two? Also do you think the arch would look better laying fore or aft?



[/list]

_________________
Brett DiMichele

Any luck on this thing? I drew an aluminum arch on a photo of my 248V and despite my horrible graphic design skills, it looked amazing. I should have save the drawing and posted it. I am too lazy to draw it again, hahaha.

dspan,

Not really much progress on an arch. The issue is that I want an arch that is beam width not wider. I found a super nice aluminum arch on ebay for just shy of 2 grand and I am sure I have enough fabrication skill to make it work on the boat but then the big issue is none of the existing canvas will work on a beam width arch, that is why you see all the universal arches go to the outside of the gunnels that way factory bimini can be reused.

_________________
Brett DiMichele

That's too bad. I actually would prefer one that works with the existing canvas. I never ever use the camper canvas, because it makes the boat look terrible, but I do use the standard sunshade portion in rain or heavy sun. Just curious, in case I am missing something... why are you looking for a beam width arch?

Got any suggestions for a wider arch. I do plan on mounting some stuff on the arch, but I really just think they look badass.

Dspan,

I want an OEM looking arch so I want one that is beam width not wider because the wider
tubular arches look like an add on and not something OEM. It's just me being picky. I could do an
OEM type arch but to do that it would cost me probably 5 grand to remake all of the canvas to look like the stock camper setup (which I use frequently).

Atlantic Towers can make you anything you want, so long as you are ok with a tubular arch. I would get it white powder coated which wouldn't look too bad. If I do decide to go with a tubular arch I would sheet the whole arch in thin aluminum to make it look more like a stock arch, and then powder coat it white.

_________________
Brett DiMichele

Hey Brett,

I'm feeling you on the arch issue. I just picked up an '06 258. The reason we switched to a cruiser (amongst others) is that many weekends I have to work while on the boat. But it's still better than working in the office, at home. So, we got something with a cabin and a generator that would allow me to get some things done while enjoy a beer, the boat I pay for, and my fam.

I LOVE the forward sweeping arches on the 268s and other models. I'd like to do something similar. I love the looks, but I'd also like the option of mounting a tracking satellite antenna. My thought is that it would provide me with reliable internet access to make the boat just as "work friendly" as the house.

Yes, I know that satellite antennas are expensive, but we plan on staying in our boat for quite some time. If we don't, I'll take it off and put it on the next one.

What I would LOVE to find is a solid aluminum arch that can integrate the bimini and camper top, like the factory arch on the 268s and up. I like the OEM arch for the '07 258s, but I think the arch and the two biminis look a bit cluttered. Keep me posted on what you find. I'll do the same.

_________________
2006 Vista 258
2007 Yukon Denali

This place looks pretty promising. I sent them an e-mail to see what options/price ranges are. Will let everyone know what I hear.

http://www.jaykaymfg.com/01.htm

_________________
2006 Vista 258
2007 Yukon Denali

NIce find, that definitely looks promising. If you enter into negotiations, see if they are interested in a group buy.