www.iFourWinns.com

Since buying the boat new I have been meticulous about having all maintenance done (every 2 years replace cap/rotor/spark plugs (16 plugs! ain't easy on the 298) - did this in May). Engines have only about 440 hours over 11.5 seasons. Last weekend, I noticed about 5-7 seconds longer to plane, rough idling, and wisps of white smoke. Replaced fuel filter, no improvement on rough idle, but determined stbd engine only had the wisps of smoke. Took her out, while getting on plane noticed starboard engine was lagging port by about 300-400 RPM and heard one small misfire.

Mechanic today ran compression test on starboard engine and found 3 cylinders with 0 pressure, normal is 125-150. Port engine ran smooth and no smoke, but because of finding 3 cylinders, he decided to compression test the port engine. 2 cylinders were at 40-50. The fix is to overhaul the cylinder heads and replace the valves, there are 4. Since a lot of interference has to be removed to remove the heads, like the risers, there are a lot of hours for this job. Here is what you all have been waiting for: Total estimate is $5,400!

Mechanic says cause could be "tulip-ed" valves. This is where the valve tops gradually get expanded below the valve seats to where they take the shape of a tulip or a saucer. Since the valves are no longer seated in this condition, there is blow-by when the piston is on the compression stroke. And he has seen a lot of these issues on VP engines recently, mostly 5.0L single arrangements because they work harder. In talking with his fellow mechanics at other marinas who have seen a similar rise in occurrence, they think it is due to the ethanol. Not sure why they think that.

Not sure if this situation is avoidable for a 11-12 year engine. I have run the engines at WOT every two weeks for about 5 minutes and normal cruise at 3000RPM. But, you would think that is no abusive operation.

There goes my hopes of getting a radar for a couple of years.

Engines are built in 2000. They are VP 5.7Gsi.

Get a second opinion. I have a 2000 298V with 5.0's and they have around 950 or so hours on them and I have had no issues like that (knock on wood). My starboard does hesitate for a second or two when I put the hammer down to get on plane but they both run about the same RPMs at WOT. Of course, I only poisoned my engines with government mandated fuel for one year. It almost sounds like you have fouled plugs but I don't see how that is the case (unless you had worthless techs like I used to have who wouldn't change the hard to get at ones). Did you change the plugs yourself?

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Current Boat: 2000 Four Winns 298 Vista
Previous Boat: 2000 Carver 406MY

Well that's a lot to deal with all at once, but for sure you need to get to the bottom of why it happened in the first place. Tuliped valves are a sign of high combustion chamber temperatures and here are some possible causes:
Fuel mixture too lean (carb adjustment, dirty fuel injectors, etc)
Fuel octane too low (many boats need premium to avoid detonation no matter what the owners manuals say, because after the engine builds up some carbon deposits the octane required to avoid detonation goes up).
Boat over-propped, engine not reaching specified maximum rpm, rpm too low. This is a well known cause of tuliped valves because the fact that it does not reach the specified rpm causes the engine to labor trying to pull that big boat on plane and combustion chamber temps go up, that damages valves.

Personally those big boats should come with either a 383 small block or big blocks. I do think 5.0s are not powerful enough for them, but you should have gotten like 3 times the hrs out of them than you did.....

After you get it fixed, take a look at the plugs, are they a nice tan or brown color (good fuel mix) or blistered white (bad, lean mix) or black (also bad, rich mix or oil burning). Also MAKE SURE that at wide open throttle it reaches the specified max rpm.
When you run the boat, avoid running it in plowing mode (like above idle but not fully on plane) that strains the engines because of the wall of water you are pushing out of the way with the whole hull still in the water.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Ouch!

LouC has had some great answers about the cause.

Regarding the price: I can't help wondering what the cost would be if you were to disassemble the engines yourself, and take the heads to a shop for rebuild (an Auto rebuilder, not a marina). That would probably take a couple weekends, but cut the job down to around $2000? Or if you could hire an independent "Shade Tree Mechanic" to disassemble and reassemble, and a auto machine-shop to rebuild the heads, then maybe the whole job would be $3000?

Are new exhaust manifolds part of the price quote?

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"Knot Easy" 2000 Horizon 240 Volvo 5.7GS /SX
tow: 2017 Honda PILOT EXL-AWD
prev. boats:
'87 Chaparral 198CXL 4.3 OMC Cobra
'69 Jetstar 16ft Ski Boat, 115hp Yamaha
'68 Aluminum Jon Boat, 3hp Sears
'64 Water Wings

Hopefully a second opinion brings better news, but unfortunately I went through this same problems about a 18 months ago. Port side had 515 hrs and about six months later the starboard @ 565. Both times had nearly the same symptoms as you are reporting. Both times, tuliped valves and burnt head gasket due to bad valves. If you have some descent engine knowledge and skills, you should be able to make the repairs for under $2k. The vortec heads can be redone with better quality valves for about $550 a set. It probably took me a lot longer than a regular mechanic, but I learned a lot and saved quite a bit of cash. I had some help adjusting the valves after I got everything put back together, but honestly the rest of it is pretty straight forward. The worst part was cleaning the block face prior to setting the heads.
I never found out 100% what caused my problems, which still bugs me a little. I did have my injectors cleaned, but the shop said they looked good. The first half of our boat's life was on a lake that only offered ethanol. After moving to a different lake, we now get valvetec marine fuel and it runs great. I guess time will tell. I hope things work out for you.

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Lakebum
2006 378 Vista
Nashville, TN
Current
04 Hustler Cheetah
06 Seadoo sportster 150
Past
06 378 vista
328 vista
240 horizon
21' glastron
20' celebrity

Spot on Lou, as always...

Like Lakebum said, I would bet you could cut your bill in half by doing the grunt work yourself.

_________________

1996 205 Sundowner DLX
5.0FL Volvo SX Cobra
Tow Veh: 2012 Nissan Frontier Pro-4X

I'll agree with most of what Lou says, except the 383 engine opinion. Our last boat was nearly identical in size and weight to a 298 Vista. Our 282CR had twin MPI 4.3L V6's @ 220hp each. They moved the boat in all conditions just fine. Got better economy than a bigger V8 and were just as easy to maintain. The boat did 40 mph at WOT, which is quite good for an over 10,000 boat.

Also, the price quoted for those repairs seems fine to me. Yes you could save money in doing it yourself, but having the shop be responsible for doing it correctly, you have an out if something goes wrong right after the job is done. Otherwise, you have only yourself to blame.

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

Ya know everyone here says if you want a 230-240 Horizon you gotta have at least a 300 hp V-8 with a DP, that's 300 hp for maybe 4000 lbs, I figure that 440 for 10,000 lbs ain't enough then, 600 should do it, LOL....
In fact look at what center consoles in that range come with, many have 2 300 hp outboards now, but we are in the age of excess I guess.

Meanwhile I am riding along on only 205 hp but the boat only weights about 2800 so it's all good.....

About the repairs, well I do have to agree with the Captn, even though I am a stubborn do it yourselfer, there is a lot that can go wrong with that job. I've taken apart a few 2 cycle engines for my lawn maintenance stuff but a V-8, even being a simple Chevy small block, is a different story.
If I were in that boat, so to speak, it would be a tough decision. I know I 'can' do it, but its the unknown things that can go wrong, and trying to get the right advice right when you need it. Thats why when my boat starts to have engine mechanical issues I'm just going to put in new crate engine, whole long block, you don't rebuild salt water cooled motors anyway.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

While mechanically inclined, there are too many things to remove, inspect, and replace times two engines to do it myself. I'll let the pros do it.
V298 has Twin VP 5.7Gsi V-8s rated at 560HP total. At WOT, O/D trimmed, full fuel (140 Gal) full water, one body, I have gotten 45MPH early in the season. About 47 MPH in previous years. RPM though is about 4600 RPM, max is 5000 per manual, but manual says max is 4600-5000. One mechanic a few years ago thought the props were wrong, but they are the ones that came on the boat new. Props are in great shape, got them reconditioned twice (once because of bent blade due to hitting underwater log about 4 years ago). When I changed spark plugs this year, they were dark brown on ceramic and tip, with no fouling debris after two years and about 70 engine hours. Changed them after first run to burn off fogging treatment.

Here are the compression readings, note l grouped odd and even cylinders (not sure of firing order):

Cylinder 1 3 5 7 2 4 6 8
Stbd 150 0 0 150 150 0 150 150

Port 150 130 150 150 150 150 25 150

or in numerical order

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Stbd 150 150 0 0 0 150 150 150

Port 150 150 130 150 150 25 150 150

I am told 150 is max expected and 125 is marginally acceptable. My mechanic is current in his VP training, very sharp, and trusting. Has given me free advice over the years. He will also do calibration checks, timing checks, electrical checks as part of this job.

I am also worried about having this as "regular" maintenance every 450 hrs, so I want to find the cause. Mechanic says causes could be fuel, high temperature, and age.

Nice discussion guys. Any other thoughts on cause?

Joe

"I have run the engines at WOT every two weeks for about 5 minutes and normal cruise at 3000RPM. But, you would think that is no abusive operation." - I too like to do a WOT run a couple times a season for a minute or two just to make sure I hit the specs for obtaining WOT RPM and speed, but I would be relunctant to do WOT runs for 5 minute durations every other week.

If there is a fuel or other mechanical issue, I would think running it for 5 minutes at max RPM might increase the probability of hurting the engine? If everything is fine, I agree its likely not "abusive" but....

Mike.

_________________

Current Boat
- 2001 Four Winns 328 Vista "Hour Decision"
- 2010 310 Mercury Inflatable

Previous Boats
- 30' Doral Prestancia
- 25' Doral Citation

well assuming that your tachs are accurate, your rpm at wot is not low, if the plugs were brown, then your fuel mix is probably not too lean, but I think that Chevy small blocks are not really designed to run at wot that much, the way they get NASCAR engine to live at 8000 rpm is much higher quality valvetrain components for one thing. I will run mine at wot maybe once or twice a season, to make sure it reaches max rpms. I usually cruise at 3500 rpm. I rarely exceed 4000 rpm. Engine is 24 yrs old who knows how many hrs and trying to get a few more yrs out of it.
This is why some people like 2 stroke outboards, as long as the carb or FI is good along with the oil injection, they can run wot without worrying about burning valves.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

One thing not mentioned here yet in regards to high combustion temps causing these issues. If your engines are equipped with EGR valves as most later models are, have them checked. A failing EGR valve will drive combustion temps through the roof.

When EGR valves were first dreamed up, their design was to reduce combustion temps and detonation. The engineers got a bonus when they discovered they reduced the oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust as well.

_________________
07 Azure AZ200,
Previous boat,
95 278 Vista,
And a lot of others.

Ontario, Canada

Sorry to hear about your engines for starters, I'd be stressed out if it were my boat, I really feel for you. A couple of questions for the group though, this tuliped valve condition, is this a Volvo only occational problem?? My 298 has the 5.0 liter Mercs and I was wondering if they occationally suffered from this happening as well.
I'm also surprised you guy's do WOT runs so often in cruisers to be frank, it is a cruiser and who cares how fast they can go at WOT, that's not what they are intended to run at! A 5 minute WOT run is not something I would be doing regularly personally. MY 298 does spend a lot of time up on plane, we always head more North then most people, we cruise on plane for at least an hour to hour and a half duration twice a weekend for sure. My engine obviously see's WOT getting up on plane, but one up I back off and typically cruise in the 3150 to 3400 rpm range. I can honestly say I've never even done a top speed check on my 298 in two years! Very occationally I might speed up, turning aroud 4000 rpm passing another boat or something, but my feeling is you are punishing your engines more than you need too or should.

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2004 Four Winns 298 Vista
"Last Minute"

Alan, I never WOT to get on plane. My thoughts are to bring my engines up about 100 RPM per second. This way I'm not stressing the hell out of my transom, stringers and mounts. A ski boat, ya, sure, nail the throttle. A cruiser, I like to finess up on plane. Like you, I see no need to drive the crap out of a cruiser. Once on plane, my engines run very comfortably in the 3 to 3,500 range giving me a decent speed near 40 depending on weight and trim.

Back to the original post, I'd say the "tuliped" valves would be the result of high combustion temps but directly related to defective valve rotators.

_________________
07 Azure AZ200,
Previous boat,
95 278 Vista,
And a lot of others.

Ontario, Canada

Not to labour on the WOT thoughts, but I want to use the information gained from a brief duration of WOT (1 to 2 minutes maximum for me) a couple times per year for the following reasons...........

After spring recommissioning and after I have used our boat a couple times, I take our boat up on plane after it has reached operating temperature than slowly move throttles forward while trimming drives out. I use the published data on the Four Winns web site to verify our 328 Vista will obtain the 44 - 46 MPH at 4600 - 5000 RPM's.

I do this as to me it confirms my props are fine and both engines are running fine. No need to ram throttles forward. I have never used WOT to get on plane (no need too), and really you just increase throttles slowly until they reach the stops.

I record this information into my maintenance log along with all other maintenance performed and have done this with my last three boats.

Personally, I feel this is a proactive way to insure your boat is operating well and a good way to be preventative to a developing problem should your boat not reach published specs.

So for me to do this 2 - 3 times a year is beneficial.

Just be mindful though, that many factors can influence WOT, like wave height and direction, winds, amount of fuel, water and gear on board and boat bottom condition etc.

Mike.

_________________

Current Boat
- 2001 Four Winns 328 Vista "Hour Decision"
- 2010 310 Mercury Inflatable

Previous Boats
- 30' Doral Prestancia
- 25' Doral Citation