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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:04 am 
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Goldfish

Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:00 am
Posts: 38
Location: Georgetown, MD
Concerning WOT: I know you guys have also read many a boat review. They always note how quickly the boat gets "out of the hole" as a performance measure. I understand the reason to get the boat quickly on plane is to reduce the time the boat is at its highest fuel consumption rate and highest load on the drive train. Then you can quickly back off to cruise RPM.

As I mentioned, I should have paid more attention to how long that time to plane kept increasing last season into this year. So, operating above is a good metric to keep track of engine/drive condition (assuming no hull fouling issues). My mechanic's troubleshooting ideas even included a couple of WOT steps: Setup normal cruise - gradually push one engine (in my case the "better" port engine) to WOT - note RPM; return to normal cruise; do same with other engine - note RPM difference with other. If there is a delta, it indicates a cylinder(s) has loss power and requires further testing. He always starts with a compression test because he sees this as most likely cause of loss of power.

Since I am looking for the "good news" side of my problem, I was always wondering how my riser's corrosion condition was doing. A friend, who is anal about the condition of his single engine because he runs 50 miles each way to fish the "Hot Dog" off the southern NJ coast 3x a month, says the saltwater will eat a riser in 10-12 years. Which is why I religiously use the reverse flush (after engine cools) that Four Winns offered on my boat. So, this problem will cause the risers to be removed so they can be inspected. I operate in the brackish northern Chesapeake, so less of an issue than the ocean.

BTW- Great comments guys. More supportive comments here than criticisms as I posted similar issue on another popular boating site.

Joe


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:26 pm
Posts: 5688
Location: Long Island NY
joetallyho wrote:
Concerning WOT: I know you guys have also read many a boat review. They always note how quickly the boat gets "out of the hole" as a performance measure. I understand the reason to get the boat quickly on plane is to reduce the time the boat is at its highest fuel consumption rate and highest load on the drive train. Then you can quickly back off to cruise RPM.

As I mentioned, I should have paid more attention to how long that time to plane kept increasing last season into this year. So, operating above is a good metric to keep track of engine/drive condition (assuming no hull fouling issues). My mechanic's troubleshooting ideas even included a couple of WOT steps: Setup normal cruise - gradually push one engine (in my case the "better" port engine) to WOT - note RPM; return to normal cruise; do same with other engine - note RPM difference with other. If there is a delta, it indicates a cylinder(s) has loss power and requires further testing. He always starts with a compression test because he sees this as most likely cause of loss of power.

Since I am looking for the "good news" side of my problem, I was always wondering how my riser's corrosion condition was doing. A friend, who is anal about the condition of his single engine because he runs 50 miles each way to fish the "Hot Dog" off the southern NJ coast 3x a month, says the saltwater will eat a riser in 10-12 years. Which is why I religiously use the reverse flush (after engine cools) that Four Winns offered on my boat. So, this problem will cause the risers to be removed so they can be inspected. I operate in the brackish northern Chesapeake, so less of an issue than the ocean.

BTW- Great comments guys. More supportive comments here than criticisms as I posted similar issue on another popular boating site.

Joe


Well about the riser, I have found that they start to clog way sooner than that, after 5.5 seasons, one of the 4 outlets in my OMC batwings (one piece manifold riser no gasket to leak) was plugged with rust. It was easily rodded out, but as a regular practice I will take em off every 4 seasons to check them and the exhaust flappers.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:23 am 
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268 Vista

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 9:49 am
Posts: 4989
Location: West Michigan
joetallyho wrote:
BTW- Great comments guys. More supportive comments here than criticisms as I posted similar issue on another popular boating site.

Joe


Wow, you have lasted 12 years on BoaterEd ? That deserves a medal of honor, or another anchor. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Location: West Palm Beach, FL
joetallyho wrote:
BTW- Great comments guys. More supportive comments here than criticisms as I posted similar issue on another popular boating site.
Joe

You are among "family" on this forum. :D

I have had the same experience as LouC with the OMC Bat-Wing manifolds (4.3L). 5-7 years in salt before they run hot (with fresh water rincing every time). They could be cleaned out good enough to get a couple more years, then replace. Last time I tried to get too many years out of them (maybe 12+) by acid cleaning, because the bat-wing manifolds were no longer available. Eventually they rusted through and cost me an engine. (I sold it rather than rebuild a 25 year old engine). The interesting thing is that the block never showed any significant corrosion, even though raw water cooled. Only the manifolds, and about 1/2 as often, the thermostat housing.

I now have a FW H240 (5.7GS) with manifold + riser elbow rather than the 1 piece Bat-wing manifold. I am interested to see what condition mine are in, as they are 12 years old, but never saw salt for the first 10 years. I will inspect them in the "Winter" (in Florida, that is what we call that time of cooler temperatures after 9 months of summer) :P

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tow: 2017 Honda PILOT EXL-AWD
prev. boats:
'87 Chaparral 198CXL 4.3 OMC Cobra
'69 Jetstar 16ft Ski Boat, 115hp Yamaha
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Goldfish

Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:00 am
Posts: 38
Location: Georgetown, MD
Wow, you have lasted 12 years on BoaterEd ? That deserves a medal of honor, or another anchor. :wink:[/quote]

Cap'n - I stay mostly on BoaterEd Chesapeake Bay site. Other forums got tougher in recent years as those that think they know the most had no qualms about letting you know that, yet not offering much in return. which is why I dropped the anchor. I was on an earlier FW owner website when that one transitioned to iFourWinns.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:46 pm 
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268 Vista

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 9:49 am
Posts: 4989
Location: West Michigan
Cool. I was on that Four Winns site back in the day myself. Small world.

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2000 Four Winns 268 Vista
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Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Goldfish

Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:00 am
Posts: 38
Location: Georgetown, MD
:( All cylinder heads were removed and sent to machine shop for inspection and overhaul. All four heads had cracks. So, no overhaul-they need replacement. The starboard (worst side) valves were found "tuliped" in 2 of the 3 zero compression cylinders. The other valve had a hole through it. They found large pieces of water impeller in the exhaust manifold water jacket. (And I replace them every 2 years!). I was surprised to see how small the water jacket passages on the manifold are - the size of a drinking straw. Clearly, this was a major factor in excessive heat. The heat was so bad, it caused a melting of the top of the cylinder block between the two adjacent cylinders which resulted in a "valley" between two cylinders at the surface where the cylinder head gasket is placed. The gasket in that area was burned away and black on the edges. Because of this valley, it was recommended to replace the starboard engine. The repair option would have required the engine being removed, sent to machine shop, and overhauled completely. The overhaul is a policy of the machine shop so if the engine shows other signs of failure, the owner can't blame the shop if something else should happen when returned to the boat. For maybe $500+ more, I would get a new VP Longblock engine (remanufactured) which comes with new cylinder heads and oil pan. Also, an overhaul takes a few months to complete (due to being too busy), whereas a new engine takes 3-5 days.

The pieces of the impeller were found past the water temperature thermocouple, so the reason why I never had a high temperature alarm.

I saw the water passages of all exhaust manifolds and risers. I could not believe how blocked they were from corrosion! They were about 75% blocked on both engines. The pieces of impeller put the starboard engine over the edge in no heat removed.

The port engine is being looked at for a second opinion. The mechanic did not see anything wrong with the port engine block. But, I asked for a second opinion and the machine shop will take measurements to look for warping of surfaces and cylinder out of round. If the port block looks OK, then all that engine needs is new cylinder heads, exhaust manifolds, and risers. I also felt inside the thermostat housing and it felt like the Grand Canyon inside, so they are being replaced in addition to new thermostats - which looked awful, but intact. I think they are made from bronze.

Lessons Learned: Sh__ happens! I do a freshwater reverse flush after every run. Winterized with the purple stuff (not red). New impeller every 2 yrs. O/D maintenance every haul out. New distributor,rotor, and spark plugs every two. The boat is in the Sassafras River (brackish water) and this is the boat's 12 season (first season was in full saltwater) and about 470 hours. So, eventually, something was going to happen. The guesstimate on cause is the port engine was now taking on more load to compensate for the low power on starboard engine. With much smaller cooling water passages and higher load, is the probable reason the port heads were cracked too. At this point not sure how much more cracked than starboard. Don't buy a 8-9+year old FW in salt/brackish water without records of riser/manifold being inspected or replaced.

I should have probably inspected the risers and replaced them at year 8 maybe? Someone told me that Mercruiser even recommends replacement every 5 years. But for a 298, the engine compartment is tight to remove the risers. And after all that effort, knowing what I now know, I would replace rather than inspect. However, you need to consider replacing the exhaust manifolds too. The corrosion was just as bad there.

The cost estimate is still being calculated as we don't know yet if the port engine will need replacement too. But, when it was just replacing both engine's cylinder heads, exhaust manifold, and risers (12 pieces of heavy iron), the estimate was $6,800.

Home Equity Loan - here I come!

On the good news side - she should sell quickly with a new engine and new exhaust components.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 7:14 pm
Posts: 645
Location: Lower Trent Ontario, Canada
Thanks for the update Joe. Just for the hell of it, have you looked into a Goodwrench?

John :mrgreen:

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95 278 Vista,
And a lot of others.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:13 pm
Posts: 1303
Location: Allatoona Lake, Georgia
Thanks for the update. So are the major corrosion issues you refer to due to being in salt/brackish water or is this happening to my freshwater engines?

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Current Boat: 2000 Four Winns 298 Vista
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Shark
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:51 pm
Posts: 143
Location: Victoria Harbour, Ontario, Canada
298VISTA2000 wrote:
Thanks for the update. So are the major corrosion issues you refer to due to being in salt/brackish water or is this happening to my freshwater engines?


x2 to the above question, I feel pretty lucky right now I get to boat just in fresh water, this sounds brutal! Seriously feel for you Joe as that has got to hurt. I hate hearing stuff like this happen.
Back to one of my original questions for the group; This tuliped valve condition, is this a Volvo only issue, or do Merc's have this issue come up also??

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Goldfish

Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:00 am
Posts: 38
Location: Georgetown, MD
As I mentioned, I reversed flush with freshwater after every run. H20 and oxygen are needed for iron to rust. Salt in brackish or full saltwater will accelerate that process. Maybe missed this about 10 times over the 12 years. So, it has been sitting in freshwater most of this time. Supposedly this flush only flushes the block, manifold, and risers, but not through the impeller and thermostat area. I have also used Salt-away about once every 2-3 months. I will probably do that more often with the new hardware. If you were in FW all this time since the boat is new, you have maybe a several more years. But, if I knew what I know now, I would remove one of the risers. For the 298, that would be one of the inboard risers. I think if you did it yourself, the port engine inboard riser may be easier. For the 2001 Vistas, Four Winns added a remote oil filter housing which is connected to the left riser on both engines.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:12 pm 
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Goldfish

Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:00 am
Posts: 38
Location: Georgetown, MD
[quote="Alan_G_298Vista"][quote="298VISTA2000"]Thanks for the update. So are the major corrosion issues you refer to due to being in salt/brackish water or is this happening to my freshwater engines?[/quote]

x2 to the above question, I feel pretty lucky right now I get to boat just in fresh water, this sounds brutal! Seriously feel for you Joe as that has got to hurt. I hate hearing stuff like this happen.
Back to one of my original questions for the group; This tuliped valve condition, is this a Volvo only issue, or do Merc's have this issue come up also??[/quote]

Mercs and VPs are GM small block engines and use pretty much the same parts including the valves. Excessive heat causes tulip valves, from what I am told. My mechanic has seen this condition on Mercruisers as well. Another marina friend with twin 1995 Mercruisers was told by Mercruiser to replace the risers every 5 years. He takes off all risers every two years and is on his fifth year and his mechanic said they look fine. But, he inspects regularly. Same river as mine, no reverse flush.

I have never inspected the manifolds and risers since I bought the boat new.


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